我本人是加拿大移民，同时蒙特利尔又是我的登陆地，在魁省住了不短的时间。最近魁省在举行大选，我特意翻译了这篇帖子，让大家看看加拿大英语和法语人群之间的矛盾以及共识，也让大家了解一下其他国家的人们是怎么看待国家分裂与统一的。
有些关于加拿大的背景知识我在这里先介绍一下，以便大家更好的了解各种回帖的意思。
1.魁北克 --- 魁北克省是加拿大最重要的省份之一，拥有全国第二大规模的经济和人口（仅次于安大略），主要语言是法语，在80年代以前一直是加拿大最富裕的地方。但两次独立公投严重伤害了当地经济，大量英语人口和企业的流失，直接造成了安省多伦多的崛起和蒙特利尔的衰落。
2.蒙特利尔 --- 魁北克最大城市，经济中心，英法双语，居民以法裔和爱尔兰裔为主，还有大量移民。通常蒙特利尔岛东部为法语区，西部为英语区。但90年代发布了一系列法规奠定了法语在魁省官方语言的统治性地位，英语在蒙特利尔逐渐衰退。
3.魁人党(PQ) --- 魁北克的主要政党之一，也是魁独运动的主要倡导者。进入21世纪后随着魁省经济一道逐渐衰退，目前只能获得魁省30%左右的选票支持。魁省的另一大党是自由党，这一地区也是自由党的重要票仓，目前三连桩的魁省省长Jean Charest就是自由党人，相比之下目前在联邦执政的保守党的支持率就很低。
4.转移支付体系Transfer Payment ----- 为了平衡加拿大各地区的经济发展，促进国家的团结，联邦创立了这一体系。各省每年向该系统缴一笔钱，然后根据经济发展水平的高低，从中获得数额不等的拨款资助。
5.福利体系---- 魁省最出名的就是他的高福利政策，我本人和家庭也曾是受益者之一。但问题是，随着经济情况的恶化，这一体系有些不合时宜，再结合联邦每年给魁省的大笔资助，经常被外省人士所抨击。


网民评论
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Postman Pat 19 hours ago ( 7:17 AM)
There's no end to the economic carnage and financial waste this horrible woman will put forward to advance on her personal agenda of separation if she's elected.
如果这个糟糕的女人当选的话，她肯定要加速她的分裂日程表，随之而来的将是无休止的经济崩溃和财政浪费。
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Dauvit Anthony Tetreau 19 hours ago ( 7:23 AM)
You'd think that when Quebec is on the verge of bankruptcy, while still using the rest of Canada as a crutch, the PQ would drop the sovereignty bs. I guess the PQ doesn't care how Quebec will support itself?
你想想啊，正处在破产边缘的魁北克，还要靠加拿大其它省份来支撑，魁人党肯定会搁置独立议题的。我猜魁人党根本就不关心魁北克怎样才能自力更生吧。
Kribby 19 hours ago ( 7:29 AM)
Chances are they will look for international aid money to support their independence... or expect Canada to still support them even though they are a separate nation.
他们可以寻求国际援助来支持他们的独立运动。。。或者期望加拿大能够在他们独立后继续支持他们。
Bobo Macoute 16 hours ago (10:05 AM)
Hugo Chavez likes to throw money around to destabilize the West. I could see him having some fun.
查韦斯喜欢花钱来给西方世界添乱，我觉得他会有兴趣。
ChrisH75 19 hours ago ( 7:29 AM)
When you are trying to sell a dream, you don't present the down side.
当你试图兜售梦想时，千万别把你的老底漏出来
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ViableOp 19 hours ago ( 7:24 AM)
Sovereignty is the last thing that Ms. Marois should be concerned about. As shown here, Quebec has the second worst fiscal situation among the provinces and territories in Canada:
http://viableopposition.blogspot.ca/2012/05/quebecs-fiscal-situation-necessity-of.html
With a debt-to-GDP ratio that is 14 percentage points above Ontario's (the second worst offender), the Charest government has backed itself into a debt situation from which there is likely no escape.
独立问题应该是马华女士最不关心的议题。看看下面这个链接，魁北克的财政状况在加拿大各省中排倒数第二。债务与GDP之比高出安大略省14个百分点。Charest政府把魁省的债务问题拖到了难以恢复的境地。
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RightOfCentre 19 hours ago ( 7:38 AM)
Harper needs to get Parliament to create new rules to receive transfer payments. Cut Quebec off so long as they provide services far lower than the Canadian average (daycare, post secondary education, others), and then a party who now wants to spend money to not be part of Canada.
哈珀需要推动国会通过一些新的法规来限制转移支付。削减魁省（获得的转移支付），使他们只能提供远低于加拿大平均水准的服务（比如幼儿园，研究生院等等），然后魁人党就会想要花钱独立了。


janet2derek 8 hours ago ( 6:30 PM)
ummm you need to educate yourself quebec has had 7$ a day day care for years now we have world class universities anything else. I saw an Ontario liberal ad for your last election saying they introdued north americas 1st all day kindergarden wrong we have had that in quebec for many many years. try again if you dare.
嗯，你需要多学点东西。魁省N年前就有7块钱一天的幼儿园了，我们还有世界级水准的大学。我上次选举时看过一张安省自由党的海报，说他们建立了北美第一家24小时幼儿园。错啦，我们魁北克早就有这样的幼儿园了。哥们，继续喷阿。
RightOfCentre 7 hours ago ( 7:05 PM)
You are correct that $7/day care has been for years, as with good universities (many of our country's universities are world class - has nothing to do with tuition either!). However - you miss the point, and it is so simple - too simple for you perhaps. You have been a taker of equalization payments for too long - just like the $7/day thing. Ontario used to be a 'have' province - and now the McGuinty's government has made it have-not, just like Quebec, and the all day kindergarden is an example of why!!
你说得对，7块钱一天的幼儿园早就有了，好大学也早就有了（我国的很多大学都是世界级的---这跟学费的多少没啥关系）。但是，你忘了一点，很简单的一点。你们魁省很长时间里一直是索取者。安大略曾经是一个有点资本的省份，但现在的McQuinty政府把它变得像魁省一样一无所有
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TonyOnly 19 hours ago ( 7:39 AM)
Montreal is a fine city. Where people of varying backgrounds have no trouble getting along with eachother.
Montreal is also the economic engine that powers Quebec. Take Montreal money away from Quebec, and what would be left of the Québecois quality of life?
Yet it's always Montreal that suffers from the PQ folly.
Being the federalist stronghold in Quebec, it's not inconceivable that the people of Montreal could say, "Enough! We're not going to pay for the separatist pipedream anymore.".
蒙特利尔是一个不错的城市，不同背景下的人彼此相处得很好。蒙特利尔也是魁省经济的发动机，如果不算蒙特利尔的钱，魁北克人还剩个毛阿？然而蒙特利尔总是要承受魁人党那帮蠢货的愚蠢想法。作为魁省联邦主义者大本营的蒙特利尔，你无须惊讶如果听到当地人喊“够了！我们不会再为分裂分子的白日梦付一毛钱。”
Opus Fideo 18 hours ago ( 8:27 AM)
If Quebec separates, the Montreal will separate from Quebec.
如果魁省从加拿大独立，那蒙特利尔就从魁北克独立
Postman Pat 18 hours ago ( 8:51 AM)
They'd have to throw out the separatists in the mayors office first.
他们会先把那些分裂主义分子扔到市长办公室去
Joseline 17 hours ago ( 9:08 AM)
I know it sounds crazy but I many of my friends, who are politically involved have said that... We in Montreal are quite tired of the PQ antics, of the French po1ice, of not being able to choose which school to send our kids to.
I wouldn't be surprised if a movement to separate from Quebec would start.
我知道这有点疯狂，但我的一些朋友曾经说过，我们蒙特利尔人已经烦透了魁人党的小丑行为，烦透了法语警齤察，烦透了没法选择孩子入读的学校（译者注：原则上蒙特利尔的所有儿童必须入读法语学校）。如果有蒙特利尔独立运动爆发，我一点也不奇怪。

usFideo 19 hours ago (8:26 AM)
Not my tax dollars. Now that she has openlyadmitted that she would use our money to support something that I am againsТWith every fibre in my body, if the PQ is elected, I will stop payingprovincial income taxes. I'll take it all the way to the supreme court if IhАVe to.
既然她公开宣称如果胜选就会花钱搞我坚决反对的魁独，那就别动我的税款。我将停缴省级个人所得税。如果他们强迫我（交钱），我一定会告到最高法院去。
valar84 18 hours ago ( 9:25 AM)
Governments hАVe the right to promote theirpolicies using public funds and to use that money to help study their policiesto better define them. For example, when there was an economic stimulus programby the federal government, the Harper government spent millions promoting it inads.
If the PQ's government had a policy of going toward sovereignty, how would thatbe any different than the Charest government using public money to buy ads innewspapers and on radio to blast students in the recent student crisis? How isit worse than Harper spending millions on trying to create a war-likenationalism, for example based on the war of 1812? Or the Chrétien governmentbeforehand financing a lot of campaigns to promote Canadian nationalism inorder to fight sovereignist sentiments in the 90s?
政曱府有权力用公共基曱金来推动他们的政策，用这些钱来研究并更好的解释这些政策。例如，当联邦政曱府推出一项经济刺曱激计划的时候，哈珀政曱府花了几百万公款来打广告。如果魁人党花钱推动魁独，这跟Charest政曱府花钱在报纸和广播上打广告对付那些学齤潮中学生的做法有什么两样呢？这难道会比哈珀花上几百万大搞像1812年战争时期那样的战时民曱族主义更糟糕么？或者比90年代克雷蒂安政曱府砸钱搞大国家主义来对付魁省独立意识更糟？
OpusFideo 18 hours ago (9:32 AM)
Because separatism is treason, which isagainst Canadian law.
因为搞分裂就是叛曱国，这触犯了加拿大曱法律。
Catcherinthegin 18 hours ago ( 9:58 AM)
Pretty stilted reply. I trust it makes youfeel good though.
相当生硬的回复，我相信这些话能让你好受点
OpusFideo
18 hours ago(10:15 AM) how is that in anyway stilted? Do you evenknow what that word means?
哪里生硬了？你真看懂了这些话？
valar84 18 hours ago (10:21 AM)
False.
In Canadian law, high treason is defined as:1- Attempting to kill or killingthe Monarch2- Levying war against Canada3- Aiding an enemy engaged in war withCanada
Treason is defined as:1- using force or violence to overthrow the government ofCanada or of its provinces2- leaking sensitive info to people or organizationswith a purpose prejudicial to the interests of Canada (ie, an enemy).3-Conspiring or aiding someone doing high treason.
The PQ is not attempting to kill the Queen, war is as far away from their mindsas possible and they're not aiding any enemy engaged in war with Canada. So nohigh treason. Neither is the PQ using force or violence to overthrow thefederal government, nor leaking documents to enemies or helping someone elsеcоmmit high treason.
Therefore, the PQ's proposal for sovereignty is not treason. And Canada itselfhas defended the rights of minority populations of separating from biggercountries, including through referendums. It would be completely hypocriticalfor Canadato say "sovereignty through referendum over there is a democratic right...but over HERE it's TREASON!".


错。在加拿大曱法律中，严重叛曱国罪定义如下：1弑君 2 对加拿大发动战争 3 战时资敌普通叛曱国罪定义如下：1 暴力推曱翻联邦和各省政曱府 2 向对加拿大怀有恶意的个人或组织泄露机密 3 鼓动或帮助严重叛曱国者魁人党既没有弑君的打算，脑子里也没有战争的念头，更谈不上资敌。所以没有严重叛曱国。同时，魁人党没有暴力推齤翻政曱府，没有泄密，没有帮助严重叛曱国者，（所以也谈不上普通叛曱国）因此，魁独不算叛曱国。加拿大本身就保护少数民曱族独立的权力，包括采用公曱投等手段。如果加拿大一边说着“独立公曱投是大家的民齤主齤权力”一边把这看作叛曱国，那也太虚伪了点。
LloydLloyd 17 hours ago(10:50 AM) In your opinion.
If it is more than your opinion why hАVe they not been arrested yet..?
You sound like Charest who tried that kind of heАVy-hand with Bill 78. Doesn'ТWork out so well as you would think huh.
在你脑子里，跟你意见不合的人就应该全抓起来，对吧？你听上去就像那个发布78号法案（对学生）下重手的Charest。结果不如你所预期的吧，哈。（译者注：78号法案是今年刚通过的一项限制学齤生运动的法案，规定学生不得干扰学校正常的教学秩序。但此法案没有能够阻止学生的抗议示曱威活动）
OpusFideo 10:58 AM on08/21/2012 You're funny... an anglo separatist.
你真搞笑，说英语的分裂分子
Ledurable 11:22 AM on 08/21/2012 Your funny an anglo anti-democrat. Becauseif it is not like i want it...i wont respect it right ? That my friend is notdemocratic.
你也很搞笑，说英语的反民齤主主义者。如果不是我想要的，我就不尊重他，对么？
RDX 10:13 AM on 08/21/2012
Most of these responses are emotional. Idon't like the idea of someone collecting tax revenue to promote separatism butprovincial tax revenue is provincial tax revenue.
What I hАVe difficulty wrapping my head around is how the province will balanсеthe books and preserve it's significant social programs should they everseparate. Consider the exodus of both business and tax base and it does notseem to add up. Perhaps we'll see it come to fruition one day and we'll seewhat happens. As a tax payer, home owner, I personally hope this is not thecase though.
大多数回复都是感情用事。我不喜欢有人拿税款来搞分裂，但省税是省税。我一直想不通的是，如果分裂了，魁省怎么来解决那些重要的社会问题。想想那些外逃的资金和企业吧。可能有一天真独立了，让我们看看会发生什么吧。当然，作为一个纳税人，一家之主，我个人并不希望看到那一天。
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smithflight 09:45 AM on08/21/2012
Yes you areright about QuebechАVing a GDP that is better than many European countries, but not MOST. This isthe list I came up with that were UNDER Quebecs GDP per capita numbers:
32,051 Quebec
31,946 Spain
29,635 Greece
28,237 Cyprus
24,417 Slovenia
21,408 Portugal
18,288 Czech Republic
That being said, sure Quebec could go their own way, many countries hАVe. Theyare a smart and resourceful people. The economic side would be more of achallenge over the short and medium term and perhaps into the long term, but ifthe majority people feel that threatened, held back or just unhappy, then thatis their choice.
你说得对，魁曱北曱克的GDP确实比一些欧洲国家高，但不是大多数欧洲国家。这是一个GDP低于魁省的欧洲国家列表：魁曱北曱克 32051西班牙 31946希腊 29635塞浦路斯28237斯洛文尼亚 24417葡萄牙 21408捷克
18288 valar84 14 hours ago (10:30 AM)
I don't knowwhere you got those numbers, but Québec's GDP per capita in 2010 was 40395 $, not 32 051$.If I go by this, http://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/donstat/econm_finnc/conjn_econm/revenu_personnel/rp_can-hab.htm ,Québec's GDP per capita is roughly 85% of Canada's.
Then if I use this http://en.wik1рedia.org/wik1/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita ,which puts Canada's GDP percapita at 40 541$, that would be 34 460$ for Québec, which would put QuébecbeТWeen France and jаpan,above the European Union's АVerage.
If I use these instead http://en.wik1рedia.org/wik1/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita andthe same 85% ratio, Québec would be a bit lower than Franceor jаpan, but higher thanthe UK and around the samelevel as Germany and Belgium.
Global comparisons are a bigger mess than most people figure.
我不知道你从哪搞来的这些数据，但魁曱北曱克2010年的人均GDP是40395，不是32051。我的数据来自这个链接。魁曱北曱克的人均GDP大约是加拿大的85%。我从另一个链接看到的加拿大人均GDP是40541，那么魁省折算下来就是34460，介于法国和日本之间，比欧盟平均值要高。这里还有一个链接，按照85%算下来，魁曱北曱克人均GDP略低于法国和日本，但高于英国，大约和德国、比利时差不多。国际间的比较比大多数人想象的要混乱。
mr Lyons 13 hours ago(11:17 AM)
again, i'm not aneconomist so forgive me if i'm way off track here, but those numbers arepre-sovereignty, you'd hАVe to take account of the jobs lost from thefederalist migration.
再说一次，我不是经济学家，所以如果我说错了请原谅。但（你给的）这些数据都是独立前的，你必须考虑（独立后）工作机会的流失。
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KennethT Tellis 08:57 AM on08/21/2012
Did I hear the sound of defecating duringthe debate? No, it was only Pauline Marois talking through her rear end.
我怎么在辩论的时候听到排便的声音？不，那是马华在用她的屁股说话。
TrollChaser 09:01 AM on08/21/2012
I wonder if she travels with her silentflush toilet. Made famous when she had an office in MTL.
我怀疑她是不是旅行的时候也带着她的静音冲洗马桶。她在蒙特利尔办公的时候，（这马桶）还挺出名的。
RDX 10:08 AM on 08/21/2012
This was a verrry expensive bathroom updateas I recall...
我记得 那次厕所改造花了很多很多钱
janet2derek
139 Fans
19 hours ago ( 5:10 PM)
wasn't that mayor bourque who spent 60,000on his toilet??
那次bourque市长不是在马桶上花了6万块吗？
TrollChaser 7 hours ago ( 5:18 PM)
Could be...I don't know who spends moretime in there.
好像是。我真不知道谁会把更多时间花在那儿。
janet2derek 7 hours ago (5:38 PM)
well if it waѕ bourque it is now tremblays.omg I just tried to look it up but had no luck. actually ended up with theanglican church. lmao I have no idea how
好吧，如果之前是bourque，那现在是tremblays。天哪，我想查查看但没找到，最后查到的是圣公会教堂。哈哈，我现在也没方向了。
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HarleyOpenRoad 10:01 AM on08/21/2012
Yeѕ, but does she have an exit strategyfrom the inter-provincial "welfare" system, better known as transferpayments? Not exactly a small amount, $8 Billion this yr, over $50 Billion inthe last decade.
Perhaps, after Quebecseparation, she would expect the same amount from the ROC, just renamed"foreign aid".
她想好了怎么退出省际福利系统么，更不用说转移支付了。这可不是一个小数目，每年80亿加币，过去十年里超过500亿。
大概她还指望着独立后从加拿大继续拿这笔钱吧，美其名曰“国际援助”。
olssy 10:13 AM on 08/21/2012
Well, we payabout 50 billion a year to Ottawaright now so it doesn't seem the 8 billion we get back will really make us lessrich. You do realize we pay federal taxes here, right?
我们每年要向联邦缴纳500亿，只拿回80亿其实只会让我们变得更穷。你知道我们要交联邦税的，对吧？
HarleyOpenRoad 11:02 AM on08/21/2012
Okay, so youdon't understand the transfer payment concept.
Anything else?
好吧，你根本没搞明白什么是转移支付。还能说点别的么？
LloydLloyd 11:24 AM on08/21/2012
Yes and thedifference between what you contribute and are given is about 8B to QC'sadvantage.
You were aware of this I hope..?
没错，（他没搞明白）。这80亿指的是你从联邦拿得比贡献的要多80亿。我希望你能告明白这点。
SavoirAncien 13 hours ago(12:45 AM)
Question for you: How much Quebec received for the 25 billionconstruction contract of war ships in Nova Scotia? Thank you case close.


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